babysevenohx Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 Hey everyone, just a reply and an update. I'm so happy you guys found this thread helpful. I hope you will take my warning into mind. Do NOT trust facilitators - I have had friends tell me they paid far less than what they're claiming to be "normal" prices. The posts they post here? The only ones that view this forum are: 1) People looking for plastic surgery and 2) people that treat those in 1 as ATMs. Everyone has a purpose to be here. Everyone has intentions. Please do not see them as a substitute to doing your own homework. Form Kakao groups, and look at candid reviews from sites like above. Babitalk is where clinics post their promotions - make sure to check that first and use it to bargain. There is no way a primary rhino should cost you that much money. I have friends that got DES and Rhino AND FG for that "maximum" price. Don't fall for claims. Good luck everyone. Please read all of the posts here with a grain of salt but also keep in mind that not everyone is bad. There are good folks out there, but definitely be cautious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mblem Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Late response...but 추천 means recommendation and 추천인 means person recommending/referee. Hope you had luck figuring out babi! To be honest, I have gotten a lot of information through the app, but it is very hard to tell which ones are regular people and which ones are sponsored. I guess all we can do is compile as much as info from as many sources as we can, and then go in person and use our best judgment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I would like to weigh in as startup founder of an English variant of Soyoung and Babitalk. I'll share my perspective as someone who has seen these things from both sides of the operating table as a medical beauty tourism platform service. During the early stages of my startup I shadowed and interviewed a lot of people in the ecosystem: patients, forum members, doctors, clinic coordinators, medical tour facilitators, government agency employees and even illegal brokers. This experience has given me a perspective that's different from most folks, I don't know all the answers, but I learned a lot in the process.Managing Expectations and Healthy Perspective I'm a recovering Korean plastic surgery research addict who is now trying to use my past experience as a force for good. I agree about having realistic expectations, but I caution people about obsessive researching. I was guilty of this way back in the day and it can impair your judgement. It can also mess with your satisfaction levels after surgery because your barometer for success will be completely thrown off. Consult with your home country doctors first, see what they have to say, set your goals, top 5 factors for choosing a doctor, set a deadline, shortlist and then pick and decide. The more time and options, the harder it will be and you will suffer from decision paralysis and buyers remorse. Maryanna who is a beauty blogger I met out here and she also posted in this forum did this the best way. She shortlisted, picked and just did it. She's happy and moved on, and looks great .Thoughts on Pricing If you don't want to be overcharged, the Korean government has calculated this pricing table for foreign patients:Prices for surgery Example: Typical Asian Nose Job (cartilage + Implant): $3,200 ~ 3,600 USD. According to that table's currency legend $1 = 1,100 Korean won, which means 3.52 million ~ 3.96 million Korean won. These prices are reasonable in my opinion, and when I show my Korean colleagues they feel it's reasonable as well. Use those prices as a guideline when you get quotes. Clinics can quote below or above these ranges, it's case by case, and can depend on seasonality, currency changes, and adding complexity (+alarplasty, +osteomoety, +revisional, +filler removal etc...) every clinic will have it's own policy and practices. ALSO these prices do not reflect bundling up, i.e. combining and stacking multiple procedures. BUT... If you think Medical Korea is smoking crack and the prices are unreasonable because you got some sassy Seoul sistas on your Kakao who got the BabiTalk beat on the beauty belt street.... OK... I get it, you don't consider yourself an international patient, but a bargain hunter who's entitled to domestic Korean pricing with all the international patient perks: language services, clinics absorbing VAT, insurance and protection from malpractice, 25+ min consults, a lot of back and forth, rounds of bargaining, etc... I get it, but you will just make extra work for yourself and add an extra layer to your clinic filtering. In Korea a lot of nurses and coordinators call these patients (Jeen-Sang Kogek : 진상 고객) For those who consider those ranges acceptable. Then you can free up time, resources and your clinic options, so you can pick one that meets your standards for care and quality. I'm not saying roll over and pay top dollar without negotiating, but don't make price your deciding factor and skew your decision towards clinics pimping out discounts on these Korean sites. A lot of junior doctors and non-board certified surgeons need to practice and boost their cred, and these deals are great way to bring in people. Also if you think going to a clinic no one has ever heard about is some "locals' best kept secret," I would caution that if you go there and get botched, it will be very difficult to resolve, especially if you went in solo without an insured and licensed facilitator versus a clinic that commonly deals with international patients.Reviews and Beauty Communities If you can't understand Korean and Chinese fluently and idiomatically, to the point where you have a BS detector (In Korea we call this noonchi), then I would caution you from reading too much into those sites and reviews, or basing things off photos. In Korea it's a very common practice to plant fake content, most of the Korean web was built this way because of Naver's (Korea's Google) closed content garden system. It's also common to photoshop before and afters. I recommend to use discretion when looking at before and afters on websites. TIP instead sit down with the doc or coordinator at their computer and tell them to show you examples, those are usually raw untouched photos from patients who have not agreed to release their image rights. Also, Soyoung technically operates illegally in Korea because they are not insured or licensed to broker surgeries, but they do so anyway. Moreover Chinese patients are priced the highest, so they might not be a good source to get info as an English patient. TIP if you can speak both Chinese and English, classify yourself as an English speaking patient instead.Agencies & Facilitators A legit, ethical and legal medical tour agency or facilitator can make your life easy and solve a lot of problems you don't need to be hassled with. They are a lot more connected than patients. If you are up front with your budgets and what clinics and treatments you want. They can readjust their rates accordingly and ask clinics to come down as well, it depends on the agency. There are good ones and bad ones, cheap ones and premium ones. A decent one should be able to assist and coordinate things and stay within those government ranges, without inflating prices. But if you're like me and love to research, read through forum threads, overanalyze, navigate Korean websites, and have late night sessions on Kakao talk. An agency is not for you. They're going to take all the fun out of the adventure by feeding you qualified answers, assistance and information. Have you noticed that bad reviews about medical facilitators on here are few and far between? It's because most of their customers are satisfied and move on with their life. Also the majority of bad reviews on here about clinics are mostly from people who over researched and went in alone. Even the ones who went in with illegal brokers/translators (read the "Zoe" reviews on here from 2011~2013 years) were happy campers. Picking an agency is like picking a clinic, it's something you want to do your homework on.Tarring with the same brush It's not fair to tar clinics, doctors, agencies and coordinators with the same brush. When people make declarations like "DON'T _____" while saying, "take things with a grain of salt" it's contradictory and will cause confusion. It's not cool to spread fear and rumors about things people have not tried themselves, especially if they are going off secondary, and often subjective, information and experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysevenohx Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 Going with a medical facilitator/agency is great if you're looking for an easier way. I'm not bashing you nor anyone else for setting up your agency. However you're not the first and you certainly won't be the last. But being so active around PF has certainly given yourself great publicity. But people should be warned - they come to this forum expecting the best but then fall into a marketing traps such as the reviews on here. I myself was like that, until I researched OUTSIDE of PF. They go to medical facilitators expecting the best results. How often is that actually not the case? I've had girls that come to me saying that their agent's choice of clinic was so narrow. During their time in Korea they had to bargaining power because they arrived to the clinic and already had a surgery time scheduled a few hours later. You're saying how great agencies are. And now I'm putting it out there that hey, people are best to do at least SOME research before coming. Translators are great, and so is an agent if that's what you prefer. But people better be warned that everyone here has goals as well. And given that this industry is so damn lucrative, they best be careful with who they choose. At the end of the day though - what's their cut? No one operating an agency will be providing services for you free of charge. They aren't mother Theresa. The clinics they lead you to? Well they have already established what commission they'll make off you with that clinic. That's the relationship they have fostered. X will bring people to Y clinic and if X's client does surgery there, Y clinic will give X a cut. People should know about that - there's nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysevenohx Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 Also just pointing out that those international perks you mentioned? EVERY patient is entitled to it. There's clinics whose doctors are so through that they consult with you for hours to figure out how your face muscles move and interact with another. Then there's some that give you max 30 an hour. So please, before you decide to bash about our Kakao group... Don't feed misinformation to other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Hey I agree, I want all those perks, I'm an American living in Korea for 4+ years. I'm still waiting for it to happen. I also what women in Saudi Arabia to be entitled to the same rights as men, but that's not reality. Please realize this is not your country, things work differently here, especially in medical norms and policies. First, to be clear we're a platform service not just an agency. It's like saying expedia or airbnb is a travel agency. RealSelf, Quora, ZocDoc, WebMD, Soyoung, Babitalk are platforms, which after all, is what you're encouraging people to use. I agree with you that people should have some sense of other's intentions, but the same goes for someone telling people to join underground chat groups. I'm not telling people to default to agencies instead. I'm saying don't listen to anonymous people on these forums who tar all these medical services and systems. Because you have no idea who these people are and they are usually not in a position nor qualified to make such opinions.EXAMPLE of Anonymous Korean Plastic Surgery Community Know-it-Alls This plastic surgery tumblr blog is wildly popular. The owner gives Korean plastic surgery advice to readers who email her. Her followers and commenters worship her as some kind of Korean Plastic Surgery queen and praise her for her knowledge skills and experience. Her blog has been featured in several international media articles (mostly bashing Korean PS). She has fooled many into thinking she is Korean and someone knowledgable about Korean plastic surgery. In reality, she's a 17 Kenyan-Canadian girl living in Winnipeg, Canada who just happens to be a K-POP fan obsessed with Korean plastic surgery. Many Korean American's have tried to out her because they feel she's causing a lot of shame for Koreans, but one of her followers usually attacks the person trying to shed light on the issue. What's dangerous is feeding people misinformation by telling them to plan and coordinate serious medical procedures in a foreign country through the following channels: 1) A women's handbag forum 2) Anonymous group chats on Korean messaging apps 3) Deciphering Korean websites using Google translate 4) Looking at photos, reviews and deals on Chinese and Korean beauty marketing apps. I'm not bashing your personal hobby and I might come across stern, but I don't have patience when I read sweeping statements, especially after meeting foreigners who were botched and came to me for help because they had no other place to go. When I asked them how did they get from point A to B, they usually said it was a combination of the above four channels, which If I'm not mistaken, you are evangelizing and encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysevenohx Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 All right, since you're taking it personally.. let's ask some questions about your business. You claim to be government funded - what's your #? Where does it state on the Korean site that they support you? As for this so called insurance... what company is it under? What's my policy # so I can use it to make claims? How much are your services? How do you calculate what to charge per customer? Also: How do you find it ok to post a girl's image? She's underage and this is an extremely public forum. The fact is... you don't know for sure who that person is and if she runs the blog or not. To post her picture in a public forum and a picture that you do not own is so incredibly wrong. I kindly ask that you take that picture down. You've listed her age, her location... do you not respect people's privacy? She never gave you permission to use that picture and the real girl whose face that is might be targeted and could be innocent. What is the breakdown of these costs? What goes towards insurance ? What goes towards transportation services? You do realize that when you do surgeries you can go to the airport and fill out a slip to get the VAT back? http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2015/11/123_191677.html this is nothing special. It's not something unique you're offering to your patients. So you claim that people are foreigners aren't entitled to the same treatments as locals? For someone that claims to have done so much research... it seems rather limited. You do realize there's hundreds, if not thousands, of clinics right? Doctors from prominent clinics have left to go to others/start their own. Does that mean that they're not as qualified as they are before? No. You're promoting a select handful of clinics. They're awfully few. Many girls can go to them themselves and get much lower prices then what you're saying is the norm. It's been mentioned in other threads so I won't get into that here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysevenohx Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 "Interesting, the Korean locals I met with normally consults with multiple clinics prior to their surgery. They live where there are hundreds of clinics, have no real time limit on when they need to leave the country and can spend months prior to their surgery talking to their friends and scoping out places. Yes they do not have the full VIP treatment of car pickups to/from the clinic and don't need translators. But they certainly need the post op care since they just had surgery as well. That is not considered hand holding... it's considered ethical medical practice. What your ex girlfriend did with poor research and subsequent poor results, perhaps you shouldn't use it as an example of what Korean plastic surgery should be like for locals. I consult with my nail technician for more than 5 minutes on how I should do my nails this week, to consult for 5 minutes for surgery... that's just poor judgement at best." - As what another "Sassy Seoul Sister" addressed in another thread... can you address this please as well? Why you're saying that "locals" don't do their research, don't deserve proper aftercare... where are you basing this from? I know I'm not the only one that has friends that lived in Seoul that have experienced with clinics. They rely heavily on word of mouth as well as going to consults. At the end of the day, this is our own face we're talking about. There's many people on this forum page that came here hoping to start their research. They're innocent and don't know about people that prey on them. What's wrong with warning them? "I'm not telling people to default to agencies instead. I'm saying don't listen to anonymous people on these forums who tar all these medical services and systems. Because you have no idea who these people are and they are usually not in a position nor qualified to make such opinions." I'm pretty sure everyone knows to take things with a grain of salt. What I'm saying it's wrong for people to go around insisting that they're pros and to trust them freely with their hard earned money and take them to clinics where the agent will make commission off of them. To research cosmetic procedures and everything is common sense. And good practice. I'm letting people know that this forum isn't the only place to research. Combing it doesn't mean that you'll be well-versed and ready for PS. There's unbiased reviews out there of course but with every one that is real comes tens of others that are written just to promote that clinic. So this serves as a warning to them and also give them more resources as well. ^ No proof reading, so grammar, sentence structure, syntax etc. might be meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kikiknows Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Thank you for taking time sharing this thread. I agree every patient is entitled to be treated the same way and have fair treatment charges. Jeet is on the "other side," he can give insights of a lot of things we don't know, but at the same time forumers should not take advice for granted and re-evaluate it carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 "You claim to be government funded - what's your #? Where does it state on the Korean site that they support you?" - http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150618001028 - https://www.rocketpunch.com/companies/myseoulsecret - http://m.blog.naver.com/softzion2012/220570902435 - http://www.eatyourkimchi.com/plastic-surgery-in-korea/ (Eat Your Kimchi vouched for me - see bottom of post, I helped them research that video) Come to the Seoul Global Center (government building) 6th Floor and say what's up, I'll give you some green tea. - We just got more funding, article soon, please stay tuned "As for this so called insurance... what company is it under? What's my policy # so I can use it to make claims?" We're insured by Seoul Guarantee Insurance Company But I'd recommend getting you own insurance and there's some government programs where you can get that for free as a medical tourist. It will cover things like flights, accommodations, and admin services if you get botched. How much are your services? How do you calculate what to charge per customer? To be honest, we're still figuring that out. We're a startup so we tinker with a few different models and ask our users and clinics for feedback. Some clinics pay a flat annual fee, some pay monthly fee, some pay fees based on a % of total patients referred per week, per month, per quarter, etc... Going through us does not inflate the price than what you get quoted going in yourself. I'm not saying you won't get a better deal, it depends, and is case by case. Some users requests clinics that are not in our network and we check them out, research them, and help them get there if they need it. right now this is free for research and experience purposes (but my nurse is getting burned out) Concierge Services Some users ask us to buy and arrange things for them like a 2 week supply of liquid food, ice packs, neck pillows, etc... we calculate the costs, pack it up, tack on a service fee, and ship it to their hotel. fee depends on the complexity of the items they want (new service). Right now we're eating a lot of costs to figure things out. "You do realize that when you do surgeries you can go to the airport and fill out a slip to get the VAT back?" Yes, I don't understand your point about brining that up. That refund system was designed to basically prove that Korean hospitals are paying their taxes. Also, who has done that so far? That program does not begin until 2016???"You're promoting a select handful of clinics. They're awfully few. Many girls can go to them themselves and get much lower prices then what you're saying is the norm. It's been mentioned in other threads so I won't get into that here." 65+ clinics is a lot and they can pretty much handle anything you throw at them. We're adding more every week. Please be patient understand that we're the first and only platform for English speakers at the moment, and the only other alternatives are those 4 channels you mentioned. We have Q & A system for clinics, people can write reviews, form and manage their own groups, private message, have profiles, etc... We're a small team, so we count on users to contribute. All of those features are free. You don't have to use our nurse and concierge services. I said those prices are the norm because they are, according to aggregate data from the Korean government. Unfortunately, Medical Korea did not have the access to the vast and accurate sample size of your KakaoTalk contacts. Going through our platform or direct, and figuring out what you can negotiate is your business, not ours. If you want our help we can help. Also, I'll tell you secret. People don't post accurate prices of what they actually paid. I can't explain why, it's a mystery, maybe it's the anonymous stranger phenomena in effect or just they want to sound like they got a great deal and not be criticized by others or lose their Seoul Sista PS Clout. I do this sometimes when people ask me how much did I pay for my place, I don't want to lose my Gangnam Oppa Clout. I'm paying too much ;-( "So you claim that people are foreigners aren't entitled to the same treatments as locals? For someone that claims to have done so much research... it seems rather limited." I think you got it wrong. I said pricing, not treatment. Why do you want to be treated like a local Korean? The service level will probably drop if you want to be treated like a Korean. Also, you have not come to us with any problems you need solved, it's not fair to judge our capacity. Because you don't know what we know.Anonymous Korean Plastic Surgery Community Know-it-Alls "How do you find it ok to post a girl's image? She's underage and this is an extremely public forum. The fact is... you don't know for sure" Good call, I blurred the photo to stir less offense. Also she is 19 now, 17 when we learned about it. But her being exposed as a medical fraud has been pretty well documented on the internet. And all those photos are all publicly accessible on the owner's channel. Also, while we were researching our own startup we double checked it ourselves and can PM you examples of the evidence if you can't suspend your disbelief. I'm sorry if you were a follower of hers it may come as a shock and may cause feelings of embarrassment because its an example that proves a point. Be careful what you read from anonymous strangers on the internet, when you can't verify their credentials and who they are. Everything, I've said has been linked back to government sites and facts. Girls you know through apps, and all the he said, she said, I know a guy, who knows a guy, etc... In my opinion are not facts, and anecdotal hearsay that furthers this blind leading the blind situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 I can speak as a foreigner who lives in Korea. 90% of the time every where I go I am not treated like a Korean. I get more smiles, more meetings, more care, sometimes freebies, extra hookups, more attention and consideration. When I worked in a Korean company if I wanted to leave on time, I could, if I wanted extra days off, no problem, my Korean colleagues on other hand, not a chance. I was even paid more because I was a foreigner (so technically I'm more expensive). If you are a foreigner in Korea you will NOT be treated like a Korean. They even have a word for you called foreigner (Way Gook In). They DO NOT refer to you as "this man, this lady, this gentlemen, this person." Instead they will say "this foreigner." It's linguistically and behaviorally in their culture to distinguish you as different, and treat you accordingly. For foreigners, what some people here consider benign and take for granted, like the coordinator sitting down with you and letting you talk their ear off in the lobby for 30 min before your consult, etc... The english coordinator being in the operating room and squeezing your hand and talking to you during your operation, sitting next you and talking to you as the Korean nurse who speaks no English stitches you out. To them that's extra work, energy, effort and time, one less email they can answer, one less phone call, patient to process, etc... It adds up. Giving a patient a overnight stay on Friday night, for an outpatient procedure, and having the nurse wait on them, having a driver on payroll to do pick ups at hotels, shuttle service, etc... Koreans aren't getting those perks. I don't see why people think it's far fetched that this concept is not extended into medical services. Sorry kikiKnows I quoted you, but not talking about you Also if you're a tourist, I think this different treatment is even more pronounced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kikiknows Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Quoting me is no biggie. Just wanna clarify, I meant medically/surgically treated the same, not treatment in general. Also, yes I can totally agree foreigners get perks, however that's limited to non-asian looking foreigners. And let's look back at getting PS in Korea, doesn't matter whether you are foreigner or not. If you go into clinics without doing enough research and having enough idea about what you really want and what methods should be, you will definitely to taken advantage of. Side note, it never hurts to haggle. Haggling is a comment practice in Asia (I am Asian). However, you gotta know how to do it and where the limit is and the technique can vary a lot based on who you talk to as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mblem Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Interesting thread. It seems like everyone posting here genuinely wants to help, just from different perspectives. Jeet, I took a long at your site and was wondering- are there only 5 reviews so far or do I need to sign up to see more? Can anyone post a review or just people who have used your service? Kind of like airbnb, seems like a great way to read reliable reviews. While narrowing down my list and reading korean reviews, the hardest part is identifying the sponsored and potentially photoshopped reviews. Since there are many out there being mislead, I understand babysevenohx for wanting to caution others. I reported a poster not long ago saying their surgery was 2 months prior, while on Babi and Naver they had posted that their surgery was almost a year ago. And this clinic uses many promoters on various sites, which I didn't realize at the beginning of my research, so it doesn't hurt to throw this stuff out there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kikiknows Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Thx for reporting that. I just resumed reading PF, could I ask which clinic it was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mblem Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Girin. I decided not to consult there. Not saying they're bad, because many of the big guys seem to use promoters, it's just the misleading post geared toward english speakers that bothered me a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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