kikiknows Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Thx! I was thinking ab banobagi. But I agree w you G is one of them as well. Did you finish you surgery already or you are in the planning phase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Yes, you're right. And that's why Chinese patients tend to be quoted a lot higher because clinics anticipate the haggling. Some, but not all, will medically treat you differently in terms of time. If a Doc has to knock out 3 Korean patients ASAP who are paying bottom dollar from promotions. Because he has a foreign patient lined up in the afternoon, he's not exactly going to take his sweet time on those Koreans. Sounds totally unethical and messed up, but it's Asia, and corners can get cut. There's a really good article that came out about this, I'll see if I can find it. For research and comparing this is something people might find useful. I had a user who picked a clinic years ago as a silent TPF watcher for facial contouring. She didn't have a good a experience and results, so she saved her money over the years and returned, but this time she landed on our site. We have a podcast interview of her talking about the whole journey, I'm really back logged, but it'll go up soon. Anyway, she couldn't decide, and asked us for help, so we sat down with her and did this exercise to help her choose. She was an early adopter so we went out of our way for her because we were fighting for one user at a time. Also she was a bit sensitive from her first surgery experience in Korea. She even asked me to watch her surgery to make sure there's no doc swapping (another benefit if you don't go in alone). Plus it helped us understand the psychology of patients who have trouble deciding and stressing out, and watching the procedure was pretty awesome. It's basically a weighted score card, and it helped organize her thinking because we asked her to define and label her 5 most important factors and place weights on how important each one is. It was neck and neck, but she picked the one with the bigger score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey101 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 "We have Q & A system for clinics, people can write reviews, form and manage their own groups, private message, have profiles, etc..." It's nice there's people write reviews and stuffs, but who knows if it's honest review? since I don't know who they are "People don't post accurate prices of what they actually paid." How do you know? do you mind sharing your sources? ""So you claim that people are foreigners aren't entitled to the same treatments as locals? For someone that claims to have done so much research... it seems rather limited." I think you got it wrong. I said pricing, not treatment. Why do you want to be treated like a local Korean? The service level will probably drop if you want to be treated like a Korean." Does it mean that foreigners deserve to be charged sky high? And how come the service level will drop? local Koreans get the same post op care treatments don't they? Well they still go back for check ups and receive treatments after surgeries, it's not as simple as got stitches removed and done. I'm a foreigner but I wasn't treated like what you've mentioned above and I wasn't called way gook in as well, maybe for non Asian looking foreigners Koreans are not getting those perks and so do I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindy3132 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 I applaud you for being upfront and saying who you are instead of misrepresenting yourself as someone that has used your service and post fake reviews like many other's have done on this site... - So the Korean government has funded your start up with roughtly $30,000 USD since September of this year. That seems like a small fund, I hope you get more substantial funding soon. I also see that your company uses a mix of that funding, plus charges for helping foreign patients to be sustainable at the moment? Transparency in how your company is making profit is important for people to make good decisions since many of the other agencies work with 5-6 clinics and have them charge outrageous amounts of money for surgery in order to profit off of the commission. We are talking 50K USD for what should be 10K worth of surgery prices... - I do believe babysevenohx is referring to the insurance and fee's you mentioned in other posts that clinics must pay to service foreigners since you used it as a basis for justification of 2-3x surgery prices at times. I would really like a better understanding of that as well. - There are over 500 clinics in Gangnam alone, not including all of Seoul - 65 clinics do represent a small number of what is available. That in itself is not troubling, but I am curious as to how clinics become a partner with Myseoulsecret? Do they have to pay a fee to be included? If that is the case, we need to be aware so we know why some clinics are promoted and others are not. - I am not sure if you are referring to me when you mentioned that people do not post honest prices after they got surgery? You even asked me to check my receipt and I most certainly did... so please see attached. I guess I get to keep my Seoul Sista PS Clout...- The last statement of yours I actually do find it a bit hypocritical. You asked me if you can post my review on TLPS on another thread via PM on your website and you have never met me or verified my identity - yet you were comfortable taking what I said on face value and adding it to your website, which you seem to hold in higher regard than what is posted here... So I guess when it helps you, anecdotal reviews from internet strangers you never met are ok. I understand you are doing expectation management with international patients as far as pricing is concerned. When in Rome... I expect to pay Roman prices I guess. Even with your coconut in Thailand metaphor - it does not cost the people 3x's as much money to get you that coconut. The only difference between you and a Thai local in that example is that you're not Thai - all other factors remain the same. You're in the same country, buying the same thing, consuming it in the same fashion and you're ok with paying 3x's as much because where you're originally from it's the norm. That is your personal point of view. But many people don't share that point of view and I think you need to understand that as well. A lot of the things you've mentioned that justifies 2-3x the pricing foreigners gets hinges on human capital. Human resource is the cheapest resource in Korea, the people do not make a lot of money so their cost of living is also substantially lower. So paying 2-3x the local price does not just cover the additional cost to service foreign patients, it actually creates a tidy profit for them. I do understand businesses wanting to profit, Apple which is one of the largest companies in the world do not calculate how much it costs to make an iPhone wonder would be a reasonable markup to provide to the masses in an affordable manner, they ask how much can we charge and who can pay it. It does not cost the clinics a lot of money to hire coordinators to waste time, effort and energy on smiling, replying to emails and talking to foreign patients. They pay coordinators very little and that is kind of sad since most of them are so nice, but it's unfortunately true. If they are not "wasting their time" on us, they won't even have employment. The Korea work culture also promotes working long hours in a very unproductive fashion, lots of people just sit at the desk and play on their phones if they have nothing better to do because their boss is still around and they do not want to leave before their boss. So with all you've described, I absolutely understand if clinics charge more to service foreign patients, but I don't believe it warrants 2-3x's as much since it does not cost them 2-3x's as much to service us. That can amount to thousands of dollars for something that cost them hundreds... If they itemize the extra costs and pass it on to us, it would be transparent and readily accepted by most. But arbitrarily bumping up the price 2-3x without explaining why in quantifiable terms is a big head scratcher. If they have to pay a significant amount of money on fees to insure and service foreigners it would also help justify it but so far I have no idea and I'm still trying to find out since you've mentioned that several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Hi thanks for the feedback and follow up. It was really helpful. I can't answer all your questions in detail without self-promoting. But yes, you can imagine how much hard work it has been to build a startup. Also you're right, we're not rolling in dough, so it's a labor of love, but we have received more grants and press on. There's a lot of members here who have met me in person throughout the years and seen what I am all about and can vouch for my intentions.Back to the topic "Researching Procedure" I've seen patients come here from all walks of life. Last year there were approximately 55K beauty tourists to Korea (this figure is based on taxes, so there's a lot more). A tiny, but very vocal group of these patients are the highly active Korean plastic surgery research enthusiasts on TPF. They probably represented less than 0.5% of total patients last year (~275). But they amazingly have the largest share of voice for English language content on the matter. People come onto these threads because Google crawls all that info they are publishing, and others make life changing decisions based on what they write, often without asking, "who is that person?." A lot of these enthusiasts tend to be a crossover from diehard KPOP fans, and they bring with them, their KPOP fan community tendencies: gossip spreading, matter-of-fact-speaking, idol news researching and KPOP forum commenting habits, etc... KPOP is one of the main drivers and advertisements for Korean plastic surgery, so it's no surprise fans want to look like their idols, and might land on TPF when they begin their journey. Normal patients who land on TPF who just want to come to Korea, get treated and move on, may have not have any idea of these underlying tendencies at play and who is giving them advice. There's no age verification, so a 16 year old Indonesian girl can be hunting face lifting info for a 46 year old woman living in Dubai. Case in point is that Korean plastic surgery tumblr blog that's ran by an obsessive KPOP fan. A lot of people think that's a definitive source of Korean plastic surgery information. For me, it's really distressing to be on the sidelines and read claims from people who are far removed from Korea as tourists, but speak in such a matter-of-fact-way about how it all works here. Especially when they make comments about Korean salaries, living and working conditions, without having never lived or worked here. A lot of people asked me in this thread to provide all this verification for what I claim. Mostly because they were charged and wanted to challenge what I was saying. But I invite you to ask those same questions ask about the credentials of other members, and other online communities being promoted. How are they're operated, and what's their financial models, etc... This thread starter had 0 transparency of those, but they still promoted and told others to use them regardless.Prices & Treatment I wasn't trying to single you out in particular. I have seen prices mentioned that I cross check and they don't check out. That's when I noticed this odd consumer behavior, but it kind of makes sense. People want their friends to know they either got a deal or have money to burn. I see my Indian parents do it all the time. I'll be honest, your price is truly exceptional. It's not the normal because it's not scaleable nor sustainable, especially with that you got. You're an outlier and I don't know what was said or done, and all the factors that came into play, but congrats and good for you. My issue is not with you, it's with one user making your price the de facto benchmark and that leads people to picking clinics who run these assembly line deals or offering those prices and dismissing other quality clinics. Cheap treatments, can be cheap for a reason. People keep wondering if there is a difference in treatment between Koreans who pay bottom dollar vs foreigners. No matter how much I try to prove this point there is going to be someone across the ocean telling me how Korea works. Maybe this article can shed some light. There's nothing wrong with that you did, I mean it's the information age. What's wrong is for other people to assume you're paying the normal price. And they are being ripped off. So what? When I was a kid an ice cream man saw me outside school, and felt sorry for me because I was giving him some sad puppy eyes on a hot day. He gave me a free ice cream, but told me not to tell anyone when I go back to the playground. As soon as I went back, I told all my friends, "I got free ice cream!" and they ran to his truck screaming. He probably thought twice before doing that again. Whatever right? It was the ice cream man's choice. But if someone tells me, the avg price for ice cream is between $1 to $3, and I call BS because I got it for free and one time my brother got his for 50 cents, etc... I wouldn't be looking at things in aggregate, but isolating these case by case deals. These can be based on so many factors, my sad puppy eyes, coordinators mood, someone's obsessive hunting, timing and bargaining skill, individual financial circumstances, etc... Ironically, if you say you feel sorry for these coordinators, you just made their life a lot harder now. Because they were't probably expecting you put it out on blast internationally. They were probably hoping you would be more discreet like you were with your rhino clinic that you seem to keep more hush hush. That's why Korean review sites don't reveal clinics, and u have to PM authors. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but people writing about stellar deals and experiences on review sites also may be incentivized to do so. This is very common on Korean sites, even if they tout a very low price. Because it could put that clinic back on everyone's radar, drive foot traffic through the door, and give the clinic an opportunity to up sell, or bait and switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Just so I understand how you interpreted this. Let's say: The editor of the New York Times stumbles upon this forum. She reads your experience, joins the forum and sends a PM inviting you to submit an article for a piece called "Real Plastic Surgery Stories Abroad." Do you immediately assume that means your submission will be instantly approved and published? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mblem Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Sent you a pm since these posts are getting buried behind the rest of the discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helloeltiy Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Thans for the great info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysevenohx Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Government grants does not mean you're funded by the Korean government. You have been given a sum of money, in your case $30000, to invest in Korea. It's in the Korean government's best interest to bring foreign investors into Korea. You saw a great opportunity to capitalize on the growing PS industry. Great on you. However, it's problematic because your prices aren't transparent. Neither are the other agencies that are out there. They say that it's "free" - but the prices you get charged at the clinic ultimately reflects in what prices you pay as a customer. Traditionally, if you go with an agent there's a definite markup in the prices you pay at the clinic. A % of it goes to your consultant, your translator (if you choose to have one), and your agent (if you decide to go with one). However, not everyone might know that the prices they're paying are 2-5x the amount that a local pays. Granted, some people might find that the perks that come with having such a service is worth paying for. But ultimately, most people might not be able to afford an extra $3000+ being charged. I know a girl that paid $8000 through DocFinder, and another $6000 for just EYELID surgery. Double Eyelid. Nothing else, no ptosis, no nothing. For a surgery that shouldn't even be over $1000. How is that fair? She had no idea what she was going into - because DocFinder had assured her that everything is taken care of. She came out of that surgery with uneven lids, and downloaded a countdown app until her next revision date. For you, we're a source of income. For us, it's our faces we're dealing with. As someone that almost fell for promotional schemes, I issued this as a warning for other naive girls that think reading PurseForum reviews equals good research. This is not the case as fake accounts outnumber real persons on here. As for you Jeet, You present your business as "Government Funded". Girls are led to believe that your business is one that is overseen by the government/a government program itself. I have had people that came to me saying it is such... and someone claiming to be your friend SAY it is so. Great wording, but you must know yourself that it's in the best interest for the Korean government to entice foreign investors. Having such a program, giving grants, mean that foreigners will invest in the Korean economy which then (hopefully) lead to positive economic activity. At the end of the day though, you are a business that is making money off of these girls and guys that come to Korea. You come up here, making posts that cause fears in people researching. I'd like to point out that yeah we are all looking for great pricing but that doesn't mean that we should throw away all of our common sense. Babitalk is a great app to find promotions from reputable clinics such as the ones that you promote through your business. As mindy 3132 posted above, she was able to get breast augmentation done for ~4.5million won. Are you going to say that her clinic, which you say is awesome, did her breasts in an assembly line fashion? You make fun of people that choose to go out there, scoff at our frugal ways... You do realize that not everyone on here can afford to pay high rates for surgeries that can be cheaper? If they can save that extra $3000 that would have gone to you, they would happily do so. It means more bags, clothing or even another 1-2 procedures that they can do while on their trip. You claim that people that pay "cheaper" pricing will basically get bad results. Yet, other people that I've talked to that paid a promotional price said that their experience was the same as others they've talked to who went to the same clinic and paid non-promotional pricing. Now, people out there now know that hey, I can wait and do the same as well as opposed to taking the word of a business owner and paying at least double that amount. Her experience certainly is NOT an outlier - people that have decided on their clinics, then found promotional prices have had similar fantastic results. If it wasn't with the clinic hosting the promo, they showed the promo price to their 1st choice clinic and consultants there either a) honoured it as well or b) made a deal with them so that both parties were happy. All without the help of a 3rd party. They were able to cut the costs that would have otherwise incurred. You claim that it's absurd and that locals don't do the same. Can you address what mindy3231 pointed out? As have I? That this is actually absurd and unheard of. Please, and thank you. Given the influx of new threads being posted, I think this thread has definitely stepped on some toes. Lol. This thread came to exist to tell people that there are alternative routes they can take, and also that there are promotors/agencies out there. hopefully you'll read this and at least learn something from it. Good luck with researching and wishing you all pleasant trips and GREAT RESULTS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinikim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Hi Babysevenhx Thank you so much for your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindy3132 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Sorry, but you didn't ask me to submit an article for your site for your perusal and approval before publishing. My review has already been posted and you have seen it. You asked me if you can post my review and even linked me to your site. That's the same as an editor of NYT seeing my article in a small paper and asking if she can publish it in the NYT. Analogies must match the circumstance... See screenshot attached. I have spoken with TLPS, they did not impose any restrictions on me discussing the price with other people. It was a limited time Babitalk offer for the month of November when I was there. All they wanted me to mention is that they cannot offer overnight stays to BA patients anymore since they have more FC patients now and they need the overnight stay more since their surgery requires more monitoring. They offer these deals when it's slow - it is now busy season and they no longer need to do Babitalk promos. When they are not busy - it will most likely come back. That's called supply and demand. Even if people go to them asking for babitalk prices, they no longer have babitalk promos. The other thread asked for people with success stories on how to get promotional pricing, I posted my success story. All I know is I am not the only one that have successfully gotten the promotional pricing. You're making it sound like it's impossible to do or you will be practically guaranteed poor results. Why I choose not to disclose the name of my rhinoplasty clinic is my choice that has nothing to do with pricing or this topic of discussion. They are a small clinic that dedicates a lot of time to their patients and only does 1 surgery per day. I don't want to facilitate a change in their business model by giving them too much attention. I went to a lot of clinics to consult and even with all the surgeries I needed (tiplasty, bridge augmentation, radix agumentation, nose lengthening and alar reduction) my rhinoplasty quote ranged from 3.3-3.7M KRW. The reason why I got such good pricing is because I went with a local Korean friend. I decided to pay more to go with my boutique clinic anyways. So between my local friend, and my expat friends who moved to Korea to teach English for a year but decided to stay in Seoul for over 5 now and and is look for other employment - I am in touch with the cost of living/salary estimates in Korea. But I guess you've been there for 2 years or so now based on that your startup started in March 2013 - you're the cost of living expert. But the internet is a great resource too - http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/korea/ "In Korea, the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 19,510 a year, less than the OECD average of USD 25,908 a year." That is a very small average net income... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysevenohx Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 No problem! Hope it helped. Good luck with everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysevenohx Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 I posted a reply, as did Mindy3132. Eagerly waiting a reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeet-dhindsa Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Sorry, but I simply invited you to make a submission to help others. I didn't say it would be approved, I'm sorry if you misunderstood this. Anyway, the moderator has spoken to me about this. And I need to inquiry about more appropriate TPF channels for this kind of activity. I think private messages are called private messages for a reason, but you just showed everyone what you seem think about that idea. How this all started and to summarize babysevenohx wrote a very presumptuous post, almost like a public service announcement, educating others on how to research Korean cosmetic surgery clinics and treatments. This raised several concerns. I am communicating my position from the perspective of a foreigner, 4+ year local Seoul resident, medical beauty industry member and patient. ------------------------Concern 1: Discouraging People From Seeking Assistance from Professionals babysevenohx told everyone "DO NOT use facilitators" and painted them with the same brush as illegal brokers. I'm not an offline agency, but I do see the value in what legit and ethical facilitators can offer because they can solve a lot of problems for people. What I understood: babysevenohx has since readjusted his/her stance, and now says facilitators are an option for people to make their planning easy. *babysevenohx - Sorry, I don't know if this person is a he/she. It's just a username on a forum for me, so I assume it can be virtually anyone. Concern 2: Dismissing Consumer Protection Information: Average Prices babysevenohx referenced a post where I used prices the Korean government had published for consumer awareness, and proceeded to say this price information is false and not accurate based on her anecdotal and one-off conversations from Kakao talk friends getting very cheap deals. I said maybe these people could be lying. Because it's something I notice people do when they don't feel comfortable telling others how much they pay. This is where she tagged you in. And to be honest, I'm hearing conflicting stories, so unless I was there, I'll never know. Maybe you're right, or maybe you told them you'll write an awesome review for them in exchange for X, I don't know. Regardless, it's working because people are inquiring about your BA and price. Frankly, I don't want to drag it out anymore. What I understood: You posted a receipt, and said you don't want to promote the other clinic you had your rhinoplasty out of concern of flooding them beyond their capacity to properly service patients. But you don't seem to apply this same logic to TL when touting deals designed to flood clinics with patients. Concern 3: Thinking Korean and Foreign Patients Are the Same This thread also opened up another issue when I had to explain why the prices are different between foreign and Korean patients. When I tried to explain that they are two different markets, behave differently, and cost differently. You guy's failed to grasp this understanding, but now you say supply and demand sets price. Yes, overcrowded clinics and small domestic demand = lower price. Limited amount of foreign accessible clinics and large foreign demand = higher price. What I understood: You guys are not in a position to make qualified claims in the differences between foreign and Korean patient care & services, you can't examine and witness foreign vs domestic patients overtime, but I have.Concern 4: Non-residents talking about Korea like they are residents Throughout this thread there are sweeping statements being made about Korean medical systems, companies, and government programs. For instance, now babysevenohx, is making claims about how Korean government funded startups work, she is making accusations and inferences when he/she has little or no understanding about any of this. You're talking about salaries and working conditions, differences in care between native and foreigners. What I understood: This behavior is not going to change anytime soon. I've watched these threads for 3+ years. People like this come and go all the time. The best thing is for other community members to become aware that people behave and speak like this. I've seen patients also get botched from reading into people who speak like this.Concern 5: Promoting Non-English Communities as Credible Sources with Little Evidence babysevenohx encouraged people to use sites in languages they don't understand, and assumed that clinics advertising flash deals on there are credible (which you pointed out, is what clinics use when they are desperate for patients). And as I've pointed out, desperate times call for desperate measures. babysevenohx made it sound like it's an evil endeavor if a company wants to build an online Korean PS service & community for foreigners. Yet for some contradictory reason, BabiTalk (Koreans) and Soyoung (Chinese) are benevolent and altruistic exceptions for babysevenohx: ---Very large private equity funded beauty community = legit (don't question). ---Small government funded beauty community = fishy (question). DID YOU KNOW: Babitalk is owned by Korea's largest mobile venture capital group. And Soyoung has also received millions in funding from Chinese venture capital. Soyoung is not licensed nor insured to broker surgeries in Korea, yet that's exactly what they are doing. What I understood: babysevenohx has no direct contact with the founders of those services she promotes, but has direct contact with me. He/She doesn't know how their businesses work and doesn't bother to ask. But asks me how mine works. He/She doesn't know how they select clinics or if they have any standards whatsoever, but questions mine. In spite of all of this he/she is proudly promoting them as credible, especially when his/her user experience is limited to navigating photos. Concern 6: Bargaining I'm not saying roll over and don't try to get value and a good price. I'm saying don't misinterpret prices you see on a discount sales apps and from hearsay as the "normal price" and that somehow you're getting ripped off. Because if you and babysevenohx believe and continue to promote that idea, you're going to make it about price and not quality and safety. People will read into what you say, and might pick no-name clinics because they're offering what you are promoting as a "normal" prices on a supposedly credible (highest bidder paid advertising) information channel. When they could be cutting corners to offer that price.Closing thoughts You guy's are not having treatments as a medical necessity, i.e. heart transplants or removing cancerous tumors. Instead you are having elective cosmetic treatments like breast implants, double eyelids, and higher nose bridges. Yet, you become so emotionally absorbed and promote a tragic victim mentality that it's "us against clinics and we have to band together in underground chatting groups and out smart them." From seeing this behavior carried out over the years, it's just a recipe for getting botched and misinformation. A lot of experts around the world would agree, not necessarily you or babysevenohx, that these treatments are luxury purchases. But when the Korean government issues a price chart to educate foreign patients, you scream rip off because you know someone from a instant message chat groups who tell you otherwise.babysevenohx has beautifully illustrated my point: Be careful reading advice from anonymous people on the internet trying to speaking about things they themselves know very little about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinikim Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 First i don't want to offend you Jeet, let's say all of your points are interesting but one should not forget that you are not a volunteer and making all concerns here without any business thought. Some of your concerns sounded like an ordinary clinic promoters such as concern nr.5. You wrote that Babitalk & Soyoung are not that efficient but how can we trust your opinion or others facilitators? How can we be sure that all your surveys & others facilitators are reliable without any manipulation? I think we can not really rely on any sources. Forumers should use their common sense and make a decision on their own. And if one is too comfortable to do so or can't make their own decision, then they can opt for a facilitator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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