k-couture Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 I don't think the dents are sagging but you can definitely notice some mild sagging even with that crazy filter on lol. She has those fat pockets which is common for facial bone contouring patients. Before her surgery her face was longer and wider. By reducing it so much her facial structure has changed and the tissues have no where else to go but succumb to gravity. I think its just not that obvious with that insane filter on. Plus she is younger. It will be a different story when she hits her late 20s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taraunnie Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Eek! What fat pockets and where are they located, and what do you mean ' it will be a different story when she hits her late twenties'? Do you mean that facial contouring causes you face to majorly sag and not hold its shape like it would of natural? I knew there would be slight sagging because of removing the bone to present surface area of skin etc....but I am really confused now and am reconsidering slightly....thats so sad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koreasaurus Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 You should also consider longer down the road when you're in your 50s, 60s, or 70s+ as well. I don't know much about facial contouring but I'm certain it weakens your bones? Especially as you get older and you get weaker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggie0008 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Hey Tara, My experience with Banobagi was very good. The doctor's name was Dr. Lee, he speaks good English. It's a large clinic so I felt safer there and they had a few employees that spoke English, including my consultant. This was back in 2011. The bone shape is great but the doctor told me that I had to lose some weight, and guess what I've gained like 15 pounds instead. I am thin, but not skinny and I think this surgery looks best when you are very skinny. My face was medium, not too fat nor too thin. But the doctor did mention that I also had a tissue component to the widthness of my face. Just to clarify, I'm happy with how I look, but to look the way I want to look I will need to retouch the fat in my face onec again. But the first year after I looked horrible becase the swelling and also cuz the extra fat that I had to remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chibiowl Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I'm just going to bump this thread to the first page because it really is quite comprehensive and any newbie should read this first. Wonder if a moderator could sticky it or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-couture Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Aww i'm glad you found it useful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddphan Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Thank you for the informative post. Can't began to tell you how nervous I audience I'll be traveling to Korea this April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovetravel Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Great information! Didnt read it before my surgery thuogh but still finds it really helpfull ) and this must take relly long time for you, thinks everyone will be thankfull for thid!, ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuma Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 KCouture - thanks for all your insights. The most important thing that keeps me undecided about a possible surgery in Korea is the language barrier. I've contacted doctors that I am interested in and normally I get an answer from a consultant (or marketing officer in other words). These are unfortunately not true consultants as they do not understand basic anatomical and surgical terms and concepts. I think they are hired solely on the fact that they can speak (some) English. Too much is lost in translation and I simply can't take that risk. I wish there was a local consultant like you for hire there - someone knowledgeable, with personal integrity, excellent English - including complex medical terms, and someone who cares to help the patient rather than themselves or the clinic to make more money by any means (even if it means giving crappy advice). The only one I've found whose English is really good and communicates effectively directly with me is Dr Park from Oz. I also have good feedback about him from an individual who had a surgery with him and that I trust 100%. But I have my doubts after finding this site and reading your opinion about him. I'm still thinking about him though. Sometimes, I would find a Korean specialist that I'm interested in through reading a very relevant for me article in a reputable international medical journal. Yes, I read and educate myself a lot through reading articles in plastic surgery journals and books. But then I do a google search and it's always a failure - Korean last names are such that it will always return thousands of irrelevant results and adding 'dr' before the search term doesn't help. Often there is no information which institution (clinic) the doctor is associated with, and even if there is I can't find an English website. I guess you have to type the name in Korean to find the doctor successfully. Second thing that I find a risk is the sheer volume of patients some of them deal with. Although this is positive in some sense and means more experience, I fear that the surgeries in Korea are always rushed and not enough care is taken about the small details. I've had previous surgeries in western countries, and sometimes I find I'm the doctor's only patient for the day. He doesn't have to rush off to the next patient and then the next one and the next one and possibly compromise my result. Typical example of this is how the majority of doctors do not deal with managing the soft tissue during bone reduction surgeries, even in patients who really need it. Soft tissue surgical management is tricky, requires specialist knowledge and is time consuming. I guess for the surgeon it is more profitable to rush off to the next patient rather than deal with this important aspect. This is just one example where I find that the attention to detail is lacking (and is often compensated with photoshop and makeup on their websites, the reason I could never trust them as a reliable source). Third thing is the emphasis on 'which clinic should I go to' on this board and in general. A clinic is a clinic, and the quality and experience between the surgeons could be gigantic. There is not enough emphasis on 'which doctor' when I'm doing research on this forum. I don't speak Korean so there is no way for me to find out what local people are saying about the particular surgeon. All in all, I think Korea is magnificent for plastic surgery, as I think there are surgeons who are much more experienced than their western counterparts, more affordable, braver in terms of what they are willing to do and how far they will go, more open minded and with a better vision on aesthetic outcomes. But at this point of time, I find the language barrier too big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-couture Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 Its understandable that you feel a disconnect when communicating through e-mail with the clinics. And I completely agree with your concerns regarding the English barrier. I have always cautioned people against going to clinics where the surgeons are not proficient in English because relying on a translator to convey your subjective ideal of beauty is certainly risky. Very rarely you will ever find a surgeon who will respond directly to your e-mails. A sought after surgeon just doesn't have the time to sit there going through and responding to e-mails. Instead they would be busy doing face to face consults and performing surgeries during their work hours. If you ever do make it to Seoul tho, you will find that many of the clinics you have been e-mailing are highly likely to have surgeons who are proficient in English. South Korea after all, has a high standard of education. For your point about the volume of surgeons, I actually find more positive than negative. While there are certainly good western surgeons, generally speaking I feel they are less skilled and experienced compared to the Korean surgeons simply due to the sheer number of surgeries they perform. They have a practical advantage in that sense. They also tend to have a speciality advantage. Because if you notice one difference between surgical practices in Korea and in Western countries: Often, tho not always, clinics and hospitals in South Korea have specialized surgeons who do not act outside of their specialty. Such a functional structure is a rare occurance in Western countries where practices often have one surgeon who performs all sorts of procedures. This is another advantage of South Korea for plastic surgery because you not only have surgeons who constantly hone their skills due to volume, this volume tends to be focused on the surgeons speciality and the surgeon's speciality only. It also makes is more convenient for patients wanting multiple procedures and having a speciality surgeon for each. I do get your concern about being rushed tho. Which is why I always advice people to go during off peak season. The surgeons can spend more time with you during your consultation and can be more meticulous during your actual surgery. Not to mention its actually easier to bargain during off peak season. During peak period, the mentality of clinics is kinda like "why should i drop the price when there's a line of patient to fill up the surgeon's schedule?" After all plastic surgery is a business so we must be realistic and acknowledge this when selecting the best time for our surgery. I always advocate selecting the surgeon and not the clinic so wholeheartedly agree with your third point. A clinic after all is a brand, a name. The one who is operating on you while you are at your most vulnerable is most important decision making factor. However, I would like to add one's experience with a clinic is not only related to the surgeon we choose but our entire team. For example, I did my surgery at Dream and I know some ppl who didn't get the best price or best service or any add on freebies because they had a different team assigned to them. By doing some research and pre selecting your speciality surgeon, your customer service/client rep and your consultant, it ensures you get the highest level of care and service and maximises your experience not just with result but also with pre op consultation phase and post op recovery. You seem to be a very careful person like myself. So I would suggest perhaps doing what I did. Before I even booked my surgery dates, I did some basic research on the internet and shortlisted some clinics. I then made a trip down to Seoul in Oct 2013 and had multiple consultations at various clinics with various surgeons. After that I selected my surgeon based on proposed methodology. The most efficient methodology for MY CASE. I had to be especially careful in my selection because I was seeking a reconstructive rhino revision (had extrusion at the time). I then went back to Australia, read more surgical journals and then spoke to the amazing world famous Dr Medelson back home about all the methodologies proposed to me and he agreed that Park's endoscopic approach, placement method and graft healing method was superior to fix my extrusion. Only then did I finally book my surgery date. I think if you go about things in a systematic manner, being as realistic and empirical as u can be, it will be the best u can do for yourself when it comes to ensuring you get the highest possibility at the most satisfactory results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuma Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Great advice as always. Thank you! I agree that it is the best to make two separate trips, one of which would be for consults only. You really maximize your chances for success by acting intelligently. Unfortunately, in reality there is always a limited budget and limited time off work you can take. I am thinking about a consult only trip seriously though. I also agree with the specialization factor, although this is not unusual with western surgeons either - I know names whose practice is over 90% about rhinoplasties and revision rhinoplasties. Then, there are maxillofacial surgeons who focus entirely on the maxillo-mandibular complex. Some of them specialize in cosmetic work (and not only functional issues). Australia is very backwards in this field, as it is a small market and neither the skill nor the experience is there, while the prices are astronomical. No wonder most of us end up going to US, Europe or Korea. I know Mendelson and sorry to say that I do not like him even a tiny bit. I had HA in the exact form that he applies for a fraction of the cost that he charges (and I mean a fraction) overseas. I had to remove it though for one very important reason (a long term side effect of the HA), and removal was hard as you can imagine. There is still some of it in one area of my face. Then I spoke to a lot of surgeons who dismiss his HA technique as something backwards that became popular in the 1980s and 1990s that no one credible practices any more because of the associated risks and long-term complications. Not to mention that he would charge $30,000 for a procedure that is $3,000 in other parts of the world. By the way, what would constitute an off-peak season in Korea, i.e. which months of the year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-couture Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 I would have to disagree with Mendelson. The Hydroxyappatite method was pioneered by him and he performed it for me in conjuncture with my concentric malar lift, chin revision and jaw bone sculpting with great results. I wouldn't trust any other surgeon to use that technique but him. I know Dr Dixon and a few other surgeons who also use hydroxy but as this method was pioneered by Mendelson and a difficult technique to master. In fact back in the day when I was inquiring about this method it seems most other surgeons were not using the granule form either, which is one important aspect of this technique. But I do agree with you, he is freakishly expensive, in part from his reputation and skill but also because Australia is just bloody expensive when it comes to anything. God even looking at the anesthesiologist fee and hospital overnight fee made me want to faint. However I never regretted paying the high amount for surgery because before Mendelson, I had pre mature sagging (when i was in my early 20s!) from over resection due to a botched mandible reduction in Thailand and a chin implant which was jagged and lopsided that was causing me pain. He solved all that for me and would also never charge me for any post op check ups by surgeries performed by other surgeons. Basically anytime I wanted to see him for any purpose he would give me the time of the day and this is 9 years down the track. Hrmmm off peak. I'm not 100% sure because I don't know Seoul's calendar dates but I'm here now in March. It's pretty quiet. April is quiet too. Last year May I had my first surgery in Seoul. Also quiet. My friends went in Sep they said was quiet. And another friend did TCR and rhino last year in Oct and that was quiet too. I think if u come around those months for consultations your wait time won't be that long. I was in Seoul during end Dec-Jan and my god the wait was hideous because the surgeons were in and out, rushing between surgeries and consultations. And then Feb I was told is when lots of Koreans have surgery so not a good time either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuma Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Good to know that everything turned out well with M. I can tell you more about the complications I had which are a direct result of the substance (in granules) and not the skill of the surgeon. If you'd like you could email a few world-leading maxillofacial surgeons and you'll see how the majority of them look down on HA in granules as a substance for augmentation nowadays. They used in a lot about 20 years ago, especially as a means to bridge gaps between bones when doing osteotomies because they thought it ossifies like your natural bone with time. It was very popular decades ago and 90% of them abandoned it for other more modern bio-compatible materials. Basically, what they found is that after some time it affects negatively the underlying bone in a way that is not obvious with x-rays - it affects the strength and density of the bone. But I don't want to scare you by any means. I'm glad you're happy. I am just saying Mendelson is practicing a very outdated method (and trust me he is not a pioneer - maxillofacial surgeons were the pioneers) that yields often negligible results with high risks and charges a fortune for it. Totally unjustified, no matter what his reputation might be. He is more expensive even than the most expensive US surgeons. I'm sick too about how expensive everything is in Australia and the fact that the dollar has been falling down consistently for quite some time now doesn't help. Not only everything is ridiculously expensive at home, everything is becoming ridiculously expensive overseas as well. Our living standard is falling while our salaries are not going up generally speaking. Thanks for the tip about the off-season. I hope you are having a good time there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-couture Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 I've had hydroxy for 9 years now never encountered any issues. In fact hydroxy doesn't have a high infection rate because coral is very similar to human bone. He did not pioneer the use of hydroxy but he did pioneer the particular method he specializes in. I have also done face to face consults with reputable maxillofacial surgeons who none have spoken negative about Mendelson or his method. However, they did suggest when it comes to removal, those who are not trained in the method will find it difficult to remove the granules. Something of this nature occured with me when I was in Los Angeles. I was going to undergo a zygoma reduction but what ended up happening is whilst the surgeon made the incision to approach my cheekbones, he could hear a crackling noise and visually was unable to differentiate between nerve and hydroxy. So he quickly closed me up :S Imagine how pissed off I was that I had an incision for nothing! Only Mendelson was able to remove it with ease. Took him an hour. And the reason why I removed some (not all) of the hydroxy is because a)I wanted a zygoma reduction and didn't want the same thing to occur again with a different surgeon and b)bac when I first had hydroxy implanted I asked for a very raised sharp look. Which granted I got but couple years later decided i wanted a slightly flatter look in the mid cheek region. Anyways, this method is not outdated, just not necessary in many cases where younger patients are concerned. When I spoke to Park about it the other day, he cited that while hydroxy does yield great results, its limitation is that it requires going all the way to the bone which is unnecessary and too invasive for the goals of younger patients. Its somewhat of the same concept with endoscopic rhinoplasty. As Park suggests, back in the day many surgeons trained in this method but the younger surgeons now begin their training using the open approach due to ease of navigation. That is why few surgeons specialize in this method but it is by no means outdated. Rather where tipplasty is concerned it is more dependant on surgical skill than that of the open approach. Anyways, I guess with regards to this we will have to agree to disagree since we both seem to have varying information from different sources and different experiences with hydroxy. Omg I am having a blast here. Albeit our dollar stinks atm. I swear I would have spit the dummy if I didn't get a good deal on my most recent surgery haha. But good food is so cheap here too. Back home if ever i want to enjoy a nice meal in a mid ranged restaurant i'd have to spend at least 100-120 aussie between 2. While here its only 60-80. The fashion is so much better too....and cheaper haha. Well the fall of our dollar was bound to happen either way. We could only prevent it for so long due to the mining boom. Good luck on your surgical endeavors x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuma Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Thanks. It's a shame that you haven't researched much jaw surgery in Korea as your efforts have been mostly focused on the nose correction. Otherwise, I would have trusted your opinion a lot about who would be worth seeing based on specialization in that area as well as delivering consistently good results. You seem to be more methodical in your research approach than 99% of the people out there. Anyway, if you have any ideas about surgeons who excel in the lower face area (both bone and soft tissue), please let me know. I would be especially interested in surgeons who can fix existing asymmetries - my problem is the gonial angle on the left side is much weaker than that on the right side, and being a man, I'd like strong gonial angles on both sides. I also need some soft tissue and maybe bone reduction around the chin area. So, I'm looking at both an augmentation and reduction procedure at different parts of the mandible base + soft tissue management. With the augmentation, I'd be especially interested in surgeons who can do bone grafting rather than use aloplastic materials. I know, it sounds complex, but the asymmetry is not that bad. A little work in the right hands can go a long way in improving the way I look. Dr Kwon from Aone makes a lot of sense in his writing about the importance of soft tissue management, but i don't think he works with bone. I think as far as Korea is concerned, it will be very hard to find someone who is good with both bone and soft tissue, especially when it comes to using autologous materials for augmentation (bone grafts). Alternatively, please let me know if you know anyone who is good with custom implants to correct my asymmetry. I almost never hear about custom implants in Korea - that is implants which are designed to fit your individual bone contour based on a CT scan of your jaw. There must be specialists in this area in Korea, but I've never heard anyone advertise it. Maybe because reductions form the bulk of the surgeries, rather than augmentations. Anyway, I hope you are enjoying all the food and shopping there and that you are there for pleasure rather than work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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